The Fox Hunting Bill

[Tony Spearing]

I am surprised that nobody has commented on this particular subject given the historical association with the village.

Has anybody got any strong views on whether fox hunting should be banned or not?

[hound dog]

Preserve tradition!!

Doesn't anyone in Pytchley - a village associated with hunting - have an opinion.

Turn the dogs on Blair and his cronies.  Between Iraq and the removal of traditions such as the Lords and hunting, WHAT are they doing to the country???

[GreenLeaf]

Ban it. It's a cruel sport. Crying 'tradition' is a weak argument.

[Hound Dog]

No doubt you'd ban fishing too!  Worry about foxes???  Got a view on Iraq?

[GreenLeaf]

Not sure about fishing but do know that chasing a fox for miles and miles with a pack of hounds causes much cruel distress. If the fox population needs to be reduced that it should be done quickly and not for sport.

I think the Iraq war was wrong and was actually about oil. Methinks the whole situation is going to get much much worse before it gets better.

Next?

[hunter]

I agree with Hound dog - another tradition gone.  I see Greenleaf uses the butcher's shop in the village, so I assume no cruelty involved there??  Speed of death is an interesting thought - should there be euthanasia for people??

I think most agree with the flawed move to Iraq - No WMD and regime change.  Agreed on the oil - Darfur has none, neither Zimbabwe.

Pandora's box has been opened.  Remember thaelast thing out....

Hope!

[GreenLeaf]

Despite my veggie sounding screename, am a carnivore! Have no problem with animals or fish being killed in a quick and humane way for food etc.. but terrorising a fox for sport goes a bit beyond that. Am pretty darn sure that Home Farm don't chase their pigs or cattle around for ages with a pack of dogs, baying for blood before butchering them for consumption. If I was to discover that cruelty and distress was involved I would buy my meat elsewhere.

[HUNTER]

Dolphin friendly tuna etc??

What about shooting pigeons and rabbits or is it simply that the food for the table supplied via the butcher's knife is fine?

I hunt and perhaps we are no good but more often than not, reynard gets away!

I bet you'd like to see animal research banned too?  Perhaps we should test cancer medicines on your children?

[Silent Hunter]

On the subject of hunting, could anyone tell me Pytchley's hunting dates? As i am not sure when they are hunting. I would appreciate it iif you sent the dates to Farmertemplar@hotmail.com. Hope you can find some dates.

Regards

Chris Templar

[GreenLeaf]

How utterly disgraceful of you to suggest harm to children. You obviously have nothing of worth to add to this debate. Bravo for weakening the pro-fox hunting position.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*

Dolphin friendly tuna etc??

What about shooting pigeons and rabbits or is it simply that the food for the table supplied via the butcher's knife is fine?

I hunt and perhaps we are no good but more often than not, reynard gets away!

I bet you'd like to see animal research banned too?  Perhaps we should test cancer medicines on your children?

[hunter]

Why disgraceful - if you are against cruelty to animals (but still happy to eat them) HOW WOULD YOU TEST CANCER DRUGS etc?

Are you going to volunteer??

What about the pending cruelty to the hunt dogs and horses when they are put down?

Sounds to me like you are one of these namby pamby people who have mixed up morals!

[GreenLeaf]

and it sounds to me like you shouldn't generalise about what other people are like. How dare you question my morals after the comment you made about children!

[HUNTER]

And what are your morals?

I don't advocate testing on children (I support the NSPCC and Cancer charities) but see no real alternative to testing on animals even if regrettably "cruel".  I don't eat meat because of the current farming processes (including local) and I do go hunting for sport.  I do believe that traditions that have survived for hundreds of years should be maintained.  Remember the cruelty inflicted on humans by mindless protesters at HLS?  All in the name of "righteousness".  I wonder how they would feel if it was their child who needed life saving drugs.  I know - I've been there!

You are against cruelty to animals, but clearly not prepared to have testing on humans (especially not you or yours)  You eat meat because that's fine and it supports a local business which isn't cruel.  You are against hunting but (I presume) eat fish which is caught (is that not hunting?)  So tell me...what are your morals?  Do you have any?

[GreenLeaf]

Hunter, you do not seem to understand the nature of healthy, constructive debate. Making personal comments, generalisations and assumptions is not appropriate, not to mention being insulting. Sticking to the issue and supporting your side of the debate with fact, experience and wisdom is the name of the game. Please do not make sweeping assumptions about who I am or what I do and do not believe in. Let's discuss the issue in a friendly and respectful way.

At the beginning of this debate I was looking forwad to hearing the views of those who support fox hunting and especialy from those who are actualy involved in fox hunting. Perhaps I might learn something that would broaden my understanding of the subject and make me appreciate the other point of view. So far this has not happened. Can we try again?

Why should fox hunting not be banned? Saying that it should remain because it is a tradition that has survived for a long time does not seem terribly valid to me. The argument that something is right just because it has always been done that way is weak. We no longer send children up chimneys and down coalmines and women now have the right to vote and own property and we outlawed slavery for obvious reasons. These are things that were once called traditions.

If the purpose of fox hunting is to cull the fox population then perhaps it isn't all that successful because, as you said, "more often than not, reynard gets away!" (I'm assuming 'reynard' is the fox).

So, Hunter, I invite you to continue this debate by staying on-topic. I would be interested in hearing/reading your views on why fox hunting should continue other than the 'tradition' argument. Tell me more about what is involved in a hunt and what benefits it has and whether you think those benefits outweigh the negative of causing distress to foxes.

I would also be interested to hear more on what concerns you about the current farming processess.

My ears and eyes are open, I am willing to listen to/read the view from the other side but I do not want to be generalised, mocked or insulted.

[Hunter]

Staying “on the topic” is the argument used by most anti hunt people who refuse steadfastly to recognise the broader issues engendered by this debate.  Not least the rail roading through Parliament using the Parliament Act.  Another breach of centuries old tradition!  In terms of tradition, I assume that you live in Pytchley where the hunt has been a tradition for hundreds of years although no longer riding from the village because of anti hunt disruption.  In most cases these anti hunt moralists behave illegally in the name of the “cause” and feel that their behaviour is acceptable.  Of course for the protestors poisoning horses and hounds is not the same as the cruelty they claim for the fox.

Let me give you some publicly quoted facts:

If the ban was all about cruelty, why was there a wish to delay 18 months?  Was it political?

700 hours of political debate – more than on the Iraq war.

25,000 foxes are killed by hunts each year
40,000 foxes are shot
100,000 are killed on the roads and even more from disease and starvation

900,000,000 animals are slaughteerd for food each year, many are reared in dreadful battery conditions

28,000,000 turkeys are being fattened up in batteries about 1,000,000 will not even make it to the slaughter house

There were 2,800,000 animal experiments (mostly rodents but 29,000 on cats, dogs, horses, primates)

26 animals are slaughtered every second of every day in the UK

Now I’m sure farmers don’t set out to be deliberately cruel but…

Let me be clear since you clearly did not read before responding.  I did not suggest harming children nor would I.  I do not agree with sending children up chimneys, though this was not tradition, simply a practical necessity in those days!  All our coalmines are now closed too!  I am happy that slavery is substantially banned throughout the world though not totally.  I’m not sure where you reach the notion of slavery being traditional.  Nowadays, slaves are called servants and have more rights.  Some would argue that employment is a form of slavery!  As for women having the vote – it gets my vote.  You seem equally willing to make sweeping observations.  I suspect you have never even seen a hunt at close quarters.  

Do you ride?  Would you like to come along?  Can you imagine the thrill of the chase on a cold crisp morning.  The jump and not knowing what is on the other side.  Even the disappointment when the fox gets away.

I enjoy the sport and have done for many years.  When the fox is caught, its end is swift.  Certainly, I believe it is killed quickly.  As quickly as a halal butcher and, if you have ever been to an abattoir, just as quickly as it is there.  The North Sea fishermen do not dispatch the fish they catch (hunt) in a humane way, and I would suggest having seen large scale tuna fishing that “dolphin friendly” is little more than a marketing euphemism.  Regrettably, I have seen more foxes (and badgers) killed on the roads!

I don’t eat meat, because I do not support the majority of farming methods here.  Whether that be battery farming or the intensive feeding of livestock.  How long from birth to plate for those lovely lambs around here?

Why are you against hunting – apart from “cruelty to foxes”?  Do you then accept cruelty to other animals.  Would you ban fishing and shooting too?  If so, the HLS debate is a part of the wider question.  If animals are not to be used, what are the alternatives.  Can you make a suggestion?  Frequently the fish is thrown back and no harm assumed.  Just as frequently, the birds shot are buried.  All in the name of sport and tradition.  Horse racing (the sport of Kings) is also traditional.  Do you have any idea what happens to many race horses in the course of a season?

What solution do you offer to the owners of the horses and hounds when they cannot hunt?  The dogs are basically pack animals, not domestic pets.  What about the farriers?

My child, now in early adulthood suffered from cancer and only survived because of drugs that were tested on animals.  No doubt cruel, but totally justified in my eyes and his mother’s.  The morons who attack HLS should  consider this.  If they don’t like what is, then they should offer a viable alternative.  Unfortunately if not animals, then humans, but of course that is never part of their argument or debate.

Time does move on and traditions develop and change.  But Blair and his cronies have now been caught short with a 3 month implementation of the ban.  A ban which according to the Police will be impossible to enforce.  With so much social depravation and a need for other more meaningful legislation what made fox hunting so important?

Perhaps if you read the Times, the comment from Liddle says it all; “When we frame legislation to outlaw the persecution of some animal, we should be a little clearer about whether it is the welfare of the animal – or our capricious and anthropomorphic whim – that matters”.  As he says, what about pigeons, grey squirrels, seagulls, badgers and the poor old battery chicken?